Name: Christian BRODIE
Given Name: Christian
Birth: Birth Parentage contested see notes in of Dyke,Moray,Scotland
-----Original Message-----From: A. T. D. Brodie <email@example.com <mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org>>To: email@example.com <mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org>Sent: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 8:14 amSubject: Re Brodie at rootsweb
Change Date: 7 Feb 2009 at 09:54:27
I refer to http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=rleatham&id=I1606
please note that Christian Brodie is not a child of Alexander Brodie of Brodie. It appears that this misinformation has been started by http://www.findlater.org.uk/Morayshire.htm
I attach an email I sent to Russ Welti. Russ has been questioning me on Christian Brodie. On the attached email I attached another email from the author of the http://www.findlater.org.uk/Morayshire.htm, Alex Maxwell Findlater, who, although is aware of the error, is unable to access the site to change the information. Further below is an email from Janet Ochs on the same subject.
The problem here is that ultimately the descendants of Christian have high expectations of being descended from Scottish and English Kings etc, contact me for confirmation, and I find myself in the embarrassing position of having to correct their sources.
Please correct your information at http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=rleatham&id=I1606.
Alexander Brodie of Brodie0A
From: A. T. D. Brodie
Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 6:35 AM
To: Russ Welti
Subject: Re Brodie
Many thanks for your email with very helpful links.
You are not the first to question me on Christian. I have in fact queried the web site giving the information on the marriage of Alexander Findlater and Christian, supposed daughter of Alexander Brodie of Brodie. I have not found any Brodie family records referring to Christian Brodie. The Brodie of Brodie family tree can be found at http://clanbrodie.us/TheBrodieChiefs.pdf
below is the email from the http://www.findlater.org.uk/Morayshire.htm website in response to my query. The diaries of Alexander Brodie of Brodie and his son James Brodie of Brodie can be found and read online at http://www.archive.org/details/diaryofalexander00broduoft
I have been contacted by another (Janet Ochs) and have attached (by copy/paste) her email at the very bottom of this email. She may be able to give you further information, her email address is included.
Alexander Brodie of Brodie
From: Alex Findlater
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 8:08 AM
To: Alexander T. D. Brodie
Subject: Re: Brodie
Thank you for your email and the attached pedigree. I presume that you noticed my comment on the website,
Alexander Findlater appears as the husband of Christian, daughter of Alexander Brodie of Brodie, whom he married at Dyke (the English word for Brodie) on 5 November 1665. He is described as ?Gardiner of Brodie? and his guarantor is John Findlater. When the Laird died in 1680, James Brodie his son notes in his diary that with his wife and with Alexander Findlater he laid out his father?s body.
I am doubtful, now, about this, but when it was written it seemed fine. Unfortunately I have lost access to the site, as my password no longer works and I haven't had the time, or the urgency to make time, to sort this out with the people who are hosting the site.
I have looked at a big pedigree of the Brodies, prepared by a man in, I think, Brighton, at all events it's a large format book. I have also discussed this with both your grandfather and with Dr Stephanie Blackden, who used to be the NTS manager at Brodie Castle. She suggested that perhaps Christian was a daughter of the laird's brother, who was perhaps rather dissolute. The actual source for my information is a Findlater pedigree printed, or rather updated, in about 1950. There a quotation from an old family bible says:
In the parish of Dyke, in the County of Moray, Alexander Findlater married before the middle of the seventeenth century, Christina Brodie, daughter of the Brodie of Brodie, who had a large family of sons, some of whom settled in the North and others went to the West Indies to settle. One of the sons, Alexander, studied divinity (born 1666), and became Minister of Hamilton immediately after the Revolution (where he died), married Jane, daughter of Thomas Kirkaldy (Minister) and a descendant of Kirkaldy of Grange.
In fact the marriage was in 1665 and is recorded in the Dyke register, as is the birth in 1666 of Alexander Minister of Hamilton and also many other sons and a couple of daughters. When I looked at the register,=2 0there were various annotations against the Findlater entries, which showed that someone had been checking on the family before me. However, I have not seen a full account of other strands of the family, and all the work, apart from that on the family tree I mentioned before, has been done by me.
I also have a large format pedigree drawn up in 1854, which only goes back to Alexander the Minister. I think that this would have been drawn up based on information in a small book in which an ancestor wrote down details of the family, starting with a marriage in 1789. However, the information for earlier generations is quite correct, so I think that there must have been other records in the family, which were accurate. I haven't been able to fault anything other than the date of marriage of Christian and Alexr Findlater and I have been able to vouch many, if not all, the events on the trees, where dates and places are not given. It is for this reason that I was quite content to accept the statement from the Bible as being correct. However, rereading it, I wonder if it wasn't added in some time in the C19 when the family was being researched (I hadn't looked at the Dyke register at that point.)
I see that in a late r note I have decided that Christian must have been a sister of Lord Brodie the diarist, either on chronological grounds or more likely on the basis that his wife died in 1640. Even later I put her in as being his daughter, born in ca 1650, so after his wife's death. I seem to remember some irregularity in his own marriage. On checking I find that he was married on 28 August 1636 but that Grizzell his daughter was baptised on 2 September 1636. What was the background to this I do not know. She was the daughter of Innes of Innes, a grand family and probably related originally, as the Brodie arms seem to be a differenced version of those of Innes. Perhaps they eloped and their parents agreed to a marriage just before the birth of Grizzell as it was a done deed.
I am now a bit more distanced from the parentage of Christian and I wonder whether Dr Blackden's idea has some merit, as in the marriage entry for 1665, it says
1665 - 5 November Contracted Alexander Findlatour, Gardiner of Brodie & Cristan Brodie. Cautioner for the man John Findlater, for the woman David Thomson in case of not abstinence for 5 merks & of not mariag in due tyme for 10 merks on also besyd it sould faill.
The archivist at Grant Lodge, Elgin, told me that 5 and 10 merks as fines were pretty high at that time, which would suggest that they were not poor. However, I am interested that the cautioner for Christian is David Thomson. Might he be her uncle, perhaps? If she were the daughter of the laird, surely he would have been cautioner himself. When Alexander was baptised in 1666 the principal sponsor was Alexr Brodie and between his two names has been added in above the word Lord, thus
The other sponsor was Alexr Williamson.
I know that the earlier volume of Lord Brodie's diary is missing; this is very disappointing as he might well have commented on the matter at the time of the marriage in 1665. If you were able to throw some light on any of this I would really be most grateful. Perhaps you have some old estate documents in the archives which date from this period. It would certainly ensure that I got my website access codes sorted out!
So, many thanks for writing to me and for prompting me to look at this again.
Alex Maxwell Findlater
----- Original Message -----
From: Alexander T. D. Brodie
Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2007 2:40 PM
I noted your reference to a marriage between Christian Brodie of Brodie daughter of the 5th thane, and Alexander Finlater. Lord Alexander, 15th of Brodie is documented to have had only two children, Grizel b.1636 and James b.1637. I would be grateful for your sources as to Christian Brodie being the daughter of Alexander. Find attached the Brodie family tree.
Alexander Brodie of Brodie.
Attached Emai (see above)
Not sure if you can help. Saw you listed in the Peerage S1670 David Brodie Citations
The Findlater.org has Christian Brodie who married Alexander Findlater Nov. 5 1665. They have her listed as the dau. of Alexander Brodie of Brodie. I do not believe this to be correct, as I visited Brodie Castle 2 years ago and saw the hand keep genealogical tree with no Christian listed as dau of Alexander Brodie of Brodie and Elizabeth Innes.
I was told that there wa s some suspicion that Christian actually might be the daughter of David Brodie, son of David Brodie, 14th of Brodie. Even though David died unmarried, Only James and Grizzel were listed.
Dr Stephanie Blackden, the (then) administrator at Brodie at one time had said to the staff that there was a brother who got himself into trouble and who may have been the father, but she never produced anything. She was referring to David, son of David Brodie, 14th of Brodie. This same David b 1620 d.01653 supposedly died insane.
The Alexander Brodie of Brodie diaries are lost for the date when Christian Brodie and Alexander Findlater were married.
If you have any information that may clear this mystery and obviously incorrect information on the Findlater.org site, I would be most interested in seeing.
descendent of Katherine Findlater b. 1673/74, daughter of Alexander Findlater and Christian Brodie.
To Jackie Leatham, from Alexander Brodie of Brodie.
For your perusal, I have attached a page of the Brodie of Brodie family tree (in three parts), of 1862, as referred to in the below emails from Alexander Findlater and Janet Ochs. this is from:
the Genealogy of the Brodie Family from Malcolm Thane of Brodie, Temp. Alexander III, A.D. 1249--85, to the Year 1862, compiled from various documents and authorities <http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=od8jHQAACAAJ&dq>. Sussex, England. <http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=od8jHQAACAAJ&dq>.
the then contributes to this tree were:
William Brodie of Eastbourne;
William Brodie of Brodie;
John Clerk Brodie, Keeper of the General Register of Saisines for Scotland;
Captain E. Dunbar Dunbar;
Donald E. Macleod of Dalvey, MD;
James Brodie, descendent of Muiresk.
With reference to Christian Brodie now being wrongly added, what has happened, as I have found is frequently the case, is that amateur genealogists when they reach the end of a line, look around for the closest and highest ranking person who shares the same name. They do what I term a "genealogical cut and paste". I was first made aware of this practice with the Brodies of Caithness, who had their early ancestor as a child of the Brodies of Muiresk. What the person who did this was not aware of, is that a diary by the then head of the Brodie of Muiresk branch noted that this same child died aged barely a year. Checking to see how this could be, I checked the sources. I found that some other had proceeded with no proper evidence, simply because the dates, name, place, age etc.. fitted. This unfortunate practice is becoming more prevalent in the internet age.
To some up the mater, there is an abundance of reliable evidence pointing out that Alexander Brodie of Brodie had only two children, James and Grizel:
the Genealogy of the Brodie Family from Malcolm Thane of Brodie, Temp. Alexander III, A.D. 1249--85, to the Year 1862, compiled from various documents and authorities <http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=od8jHQAACAAJ&dq>.
History of Nairnshire <http://www.archive.org/details/historyofnairnsh00bainuoft>.
The diary of Alexander Brodie of Brodie, MDCLII-MDCLXXX. and of his son, James Brodie of Brodie, MDCLXXX-MDCLXXXV. consisting of extracts from the existing manuscripts, and a republication of the volume printed at Edinburgh in the year 1740 :
Oxford Dictionary of National Biography, entry: Brodie [Brody], Alexander, of Brodie, Lord Brodie (1617-1680) <http://www.oxforddnb.com/public/index.html?url=%2Findex.jsp>
Lord Brodie: his life and times, 1617-80. With continuation to the Revolution (1904) <http://www.archive.org/details/lordbrodiehislif00bainuoft>
burkes-peerage <http://www.burkes-peerage.net/familyhomepage.aspx?FID=0&FN=BRODIEOFBRODIE> and their various publications.
BRODIE TREE (1862) A
Brodie tree (1862) a
BRODIE TREE (1862)B<http://ua5c9q.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pWqxB65rxYaHg0wON7oJK1IfR5Y_rZ3hh2d1kz1WeopUzkIixK3rEJBAL45k1mpPG8SbZuOt_StQ/5A9.jpg?download> <http://ua5c9q.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pWqxB65rxYaHg0wON7oJK1IfR5Y_rZ3hh2d1kz1WeopUzkIixK3rEJBAL45k1mpPG8SbZuOt_StQ/5A9.jpg?download>
Brodie tree (1862) b
BRODIE TREE (1862) C
Brodie tree (1862) c
and there is no evidence to whatsoever that Christian Brodie is daughter of Alexander Brodie of Brodie, (or for that mater, daughter of David Brodie, brother to Alexander Brodie of Brodie.).
Alexander Brodie of Brodie.
Father: Alexander Brodie c: 25 Jul 1617 in Brodie,Moray,Scotland
Mother: Elizabeth INNES b: in of Innes,Moray,Scotland
Alexander FINDLATER b: 7 Jan 1636 in Brodie,Moray,Scotland
5 Nov 1665
- Katherine FINDLATER b: 15 Mar 1674 in Dyke,Moray,Scotland c: Mar 1674 in Dyke, Elgin, Moray, Scotland