Richard de Reviers, Lord of Reviers, Vernon, and Nehou (al l in Normandy). [Burke's Peerage. p. 832]

Richard; feudal Lord of Vernon and holder of many manors a t the time of the Domesday Survey 1086; enjoyed a local pro minence in the County Palatine of Chester as Baron of Shipb rooke (a subinfeudatory rank (but not a peerage title) conf erred by Hugh d'Avranches or Lupus (ie. "Wolf", so-called f rom his ferocity and acquisitiveness), Earl of Chester wit h quasi-regal powers, so created 1071 in the reign of his g reat-uncle of the half blood William I ("The Conqueror") . [Burke's Peerage, p. 2884 on the Barony of Vernon]

Note: Burke's does not document that Richard was made an Ea rl of Devon.

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RICHARD DE REVIERS, Seigneur de Reviers, Vernon, and Néhou , in Normandy. His parentage is unknown, but he has been co njectured to have been son and heir of William DE VERNON (a ). In Domesday he appears as the possessor of a single Man or Mosterton in Dorset. It has been erroneously considere d that he was created Earl of Devon by Henry I. The authori ties for this are the statements made in two monastic chron icles. There is, however, abundant charter evidence that h e never styled himself an Earl, that his wife in her widowh ood never styled herself a Countess, and that none of thei r children, nor their grandchildren, ever so styled them. H e was the founder (in the technical sense of the word) of t he Abbey of Montebourg.

He married Adelise, daughter of William PEVEREL of Nottingh am, the elder, by Adeline, his wife. He died 8 September 11 07, and was buried in the Abbey of Montebourg. His widow su rvived her eldest son, Baldwin, and died 27 May 1156 or lat er. [Complete Peerage IV:309-11, (transcribed by Dave Utzi nger)]

(a) It appears from a charter of Henry I to the canons of B reamore that Richard's son, Baldwin had an uncle Hugh, wh o (if by 'Avunnculus' is meant 'patruus') may be the Hugh d e Redveris mentioned in a memorandum of La Trinite at Caen , and also the Hugh mentioned as son of William de Vernon i n a document (of date about 1067) in the cartulary of La Tr inite at Rouen, signed by William Vernonensis and Emma hi s wife. In the register of Carisbrooke it is said that Ric hard de Reviers was 'nepos' of William Fitz Osborn, after w hose death (his sons John & Richard having dvp.) the Isle o f Wight was inherited by the said Richard, 'tunc Comes Exon ie.' So that this Richard may have been son of William d e Vernon, by Emma, sister of William fitz Osborn. The cont inuator of William of Jumieges states that a niece of Gunno r the wife of Duke Richard was married to Osmund de Centumv illis, Vicomte de Vernon, and was mother of the first Ful k de Aneio and of the mother of the first Baldwin de Revie rs.

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Following copied from Dave Utzinger, World Connect db=utzin g, rootsweb.com:

Close advisor to Henry I.

Richards parentage has long been shrouded in confusion. Dug dale said he was the son of Baldwin de Meules, but this wa s based on the misconception that Ricahrd fitz Baldwin wa s the same person as Richard de Redvers. It has also been a rgued more recently that Richard was the son of a Baldwin d e Redvers who is mentioned in the deathbed charter of his b rother Richard in 1060.

However, it is most likely that Richard was a son of Willia m de Vernon, lord of Vernon, Normandy who died after 1077 , and probably before 1089. A charter of Richard de Verno n (grandson or great grandson of Richard de Redvers) preser ved by Thomas Stapleton and dated by him to 1186 states tha t 'confirmo donationem quam primus Willelmus de Vernone ANT ECESSOR MEUS, cujus corpus in ecclesia de Vernone jacet... ' If this is taken in conjunction with the facts that WIlli am de Vernon had a son named Hugh, and that Richard's son B aldwin had an uncle named Hugh, it shows that William had t wo sons, Hugh and Richard.

Hope this makes sense. The Redvers and Vernon families wer e very closely linked, & it is difficult to make sense of i t all.

Luke Potter

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Richard de Abrincis, surnamed de Redvers, having s. to th e honours and possession of his father, resigned the Baron y of Okehampton, the sheriffalty of Devon, and the custod y of the castle at Exeter, in favour of his nephew, Rober t de Abrincis, and was created Earl of Devon by King Henr y I with a grant of the Isle of Wight in fee. This noblema n (who, from residing chiefly at Exeter, was generally call ed Earl of Exeter) m. Adeliza, dau. and co-heiress of Willi am FitzOsborne, Earl of Hereford, and had issue,

I. Baldwin de Redvers, his successor. II. William de Redver s, surnamed de Vernon. III. Robert de Redvers. I. Hadwise , m. to William de Romare, Earl of Lincoln.

Richard de Redvers, 1st Earl of Devon, d. in 1137, and wa s s. by his eldest son, Baldwin de Redvers. [Sir Bernard Bu rke, Dormant and Extinct Peerages, Burke's Peerage, London , 1883, p. 140, Courtenay, Barons Courtenay, Earls of Devon]

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The following post-em from Curt Hofemann, curt_hofemann A T yahoo.com, contains some of the debate/speculation abou t the ancestry of Richard:

Below is way more than you probably ever wanted on this sub ject. I apologize in advance for its length:

Luke Potter posted to gen-medieval AT rootsweb.com on 0 9 Jan 1998 Subject: Re: Baldwin de Reviers: Richard's paren tage has long been shrouded in confusion. Dugdale said he w as the son of Baldwin de Meules, but this was based on th e misconception that Richard fitz Baldwin was the same pers on as Richard de Redvers. It has also been argued more rece ntly that Richard was the son of a Baldwin de Redvers who i s mentioned in the deathbed charter of his brother Richar d in 1060. However, it is most likely that Richard was a so n of William de Vernon, lord of Vernon, Normandy who died a fter 1077, and probably before 1089. A charter of Richard d e Vernon (grandson or great grandson of Richard de Redvers ) preserved by Thomas Stapleton and dated by him to 1186 st ates that 'confirmo donationem quam primus Willelmus de Ver none ANTECESSOR MEUS, cujus corpus in ecclesia de Vernone j acet...' If this is taken in conjunction with the facts tha t WIlliam de Vernon had a son named Hugh, and that Richard' s son Baldwin had an uncle named Hugh, it shows that Willia m had two sons, Hugh and Richard.
A dissenting argument on Richard's ancestry: Diana Trenc hard posted privately to me on 9 Jan 1998 Subject: Re: Bald win de Reviers . . . As you will see, my quote from Bearma n (1994) comes down on the other side of the possible ances try of the first Richard Redvers. I'll leave you to judge t he evidence. . . Richard de Redvers (died 1107) was the fou nder of the family in England as a consequence of his suppo rt for Henry prior to his becoming King Henry I. His son Ba lwin was created Earl of Devon in 1141 by Matilda as a rewa rd for his vigorous support of her against Stephen. The fol lowing is a quote from the Introduction in "Charters of th e Redvers Family and the Earldom of Devon 1090-1217' by Rob ert Bearman, pub 1994 by Devon and Cornwall Record Society , New Series, Vol 37. "The origins of the Redvers family ar e obscure. For many years genealogists thought otherwise, d ue to their reliance on William Dugdale's 'Baronage of Engl and' (1675-6), which had mistakenly equated Richard de Redv ers with Richard the son of Baldwin de Meules, William I' s sheriff of Devon. [footnote: His mistake was still bein g repeated more than 200 years later: eg DNB, iii, 34; Note s and Queries, 12th series, vii,(4 Dec 1920), p445.] The ed itors of 'The Complete Peerage' were aware of Dugdale's err or but further compounded matters by proposing as Richard' s father William de Vernon, prominent in Normandy in the el eventh century.['Complete Peerage',iv,310; 'William the Con queror, D.C.Douglas, London, 1964,pp87-8.] The evidence o n which they relied, however, does not bear this out, [foot note: their argument hinged on the relationship between Hug h and William de Vernon in a charter quoted in Round, 'Cale ndar', p23, no 82. The calendar makes William the father o f Hugh, but in fact the relationship was the other way roun d ('Chartularium de Mont Rothomagi, p430, no 16).] A more p lausible theory had already been advanced by Thomas Staplet on in the 1840s but in such a confused manner that later ge nealogists were unable to follow his arguments, [footnote : 'Magni Rotuli Scaccarii Normanniae', 2 vols, Royal Histor ical Society, London, 1840-4, ii, pp cclxix-cclxxx; and se e JR Planche, 'The Conqueror and his Companions', 2 vols, L ondon, 1874, ii, 46, and GH White in 'The Genealogist', N S xxxvii (1921), p131.]. It was based on a charter of 1060 , now available in modern edition, which mentions three Red vers brothers: Richard (who died in that year), William an d Baldwin, [footnote: 'Recueil des Actes des Ducs de Norman die', ed M. Faroux, Caen, 1961, p328, no 147. The brothers ' surname occurs only in the rubric.]. It was Stapleton's b elief that this Baldwin was Richard's father, mainly on th e grounds that Richard in turn named his eldest son Baldwin . This may seem inconclusive but the argument is given som e support by Robert de Torigni in one of his interpolation s in the Chronicle of William de Jumieges [pp 328-9]. Clear ly the matter must be left in some doubt, but Stapleton's a rgument, unlike the others, is at least not based on error s and should therefore be preferred." [Ref: http://freepage s.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~jast/D0026/G0000005.html]

Research note:
CP Shows that Baldwin de Redvers (II), Earl of Devon, ha d an uncle Hugh. Assuming correct use of latin this woul d mean that his father Richard had a brother of this name . It is then hypothesized that this Hugh was the same as th e Hugh, son of William de Vernon and his wife Emma, which w ould provide the same parentage for Richard. The Genealog y of the founders of Carisbrook show this same Richard to b e nephew of William Fitz Osbern, and thus it was hypothesiz ed that Richard, the first English Redvers/Vernon, was so n of William de Vernon and Emma Fitz Osbern, who in turn wa s daughter of Osbern de Bolbec (in a 2nd msg TAF correcte d name to de Crepon) and Emma d'Ivry. However this parenta ge for Richard was disproven. This is reported in van Hout z article, Robert de Torigni as Genealogist, in Studies i n Medieval History presented to R Allen Brown, and I have n ot had the time to track down her reference for the disproo f.

In a more complete discussion of the family in the artic le Aspects of Robert de Torigny's Genealogies Revisited (i n Nottingham Medieval Studies 27:21-7). This shows that i n the generation prior to Richard, there is a Baldwin, a Ri chard who d.s.p., and their (presumed) brother William, so n of Hugh (the author hypothesizes that William was eithe r the youngest child of Hugh, or the only child, making Ric hard and Baldwin half-brothers). This last William appear s identical to the William who married Emma, and had Hugh . The author calls her Emma Fitz Osbern, but this forget s that her identity as a Fitz Osbern depends on her identit y as mother of Richard, which has been rejected (if he ha s other reasons, he does not give them). The author then h ypothesizes that Richard (father of Earl Baldwin) and his b rother Hugh are sons of Baldwin, and that this Baldwin is t he same as the Baldwin de Redvers that Robert names as so n of a daughter of Osmund de Centumuilliers, vicomte de Ver non (otherwise difficult to identify) by a niece of Duches s Gunnor.
Now for my own speculation (entirely unsupported!). Eit her the first Baldwin de Redvers, in marrying a sister of W illiam Fitz Osbern was within the prohibited degree (of whi ch the Normans tended to be rather scrupulous) since his wi fe would be granddaughter of Gunnor's brother, and his moth er was granddaughter of one of Gunnor's siblings, or else R obert has erred here. Could it be that there was only on e relationship with Gunnor, that Richard was great-nephew o f William Fitz Osbern, and that Baldwin's mother, was daugh ter of a nephew (Osbern de Crepon, son of Herfast, her brot her) and not of a niece (the unnamed wife of Osmund)? One c ould even go a step more (if William, son of Hugh was in fa ct a half-brother), and suggest that Robert, in confusing O smund with Osbert shuffled generations somewhat, and that O smund de Centumuilliers married a great-niece of Gunnor, da ughter of her nephew Osbert, and by him was mother of Baldw in (rather than him being maternal grandson).

It could even be (I am speculating on the fly, without m y references, but I suspect this version would stretch chro nology too much, making William Fitz Osbern too much olde r than Richard) that Baldwin was maternal grandson of Osmun d, and he in turn married the daughter of Osbert (Robert di d have a tendancy to drop generations, as appears to have b een the case in the Montgomery and Warenne connections to G unnor). [Ref: TAF 15 Nov 1996]



Richard de Reviers. "Redvers" is a later spelling. The Lord ship of the Island was valued for its rents, not its "ver y high honour" ~ a concept of later times. Richard did no t adopt the style of Earl, and he died on 8 September 1107 , not in 1140. [Ref: http://www.baronage.co.uk/bphtm-03/bea ver1a.html]

Regards, Curt

the Shipbrook Vernons of Cheshire had risen to the top of t he Cheshire aristocracy, Sir Richard de Vernon having bee n chosen the second baron in the ranks of Earl Hugh Lupus , cousin of the Conqueror, among the Earl's original establ ishment in 1087 A.D. Four barons were chosen. The first i n rank was Sir William de Venables. The third was Sir Hug h de Malbank. Later, these families intermarried

• Married: 1089 in Isle Of Wight, England
• Change Date: 31 Mar 2011

1. Hawyse Or Maud De Reviers b: Abt 1094 in Isle Of Wight, Hampshire, England
2. William De Vernon b: Abt 1095 in Shipbrook, Northwich, Cheshire, England
3. Baldwin De Reviers b: Abt 1102 in Isle Of Wight, Hampshire, England
4. Avis De Redvers b: Abt 1100 in Mosterton, Beaminster, Dorset, England

1. Abbrev: Burke's Peerage & Baronetage, 106th Edition, Charles Mosley Editor-in-Chief, 1999
   Title: Burke's Peerage & Baronetage, 106th Edition, Charles Mosle y Editor-in-Chief, 1999
   Page: 832
   Quality: 3
   Text: does not name him Earl of Devon
2. Abbrev: Complete Peerage of England Scotland Ireland Great Britain and the United Kingdom, by G. E Cokayne, Sutton Publishing Ltd, 2000
   Title: Complete Peerage of England Scotland Ireland Great Britai n and the United Kingdom, by G. E Cokayne, Sutton Publishi ng Ltd, 2000
   Page: IV:309-11
   Quality: 3
3. Abbrev: Norman
   Title: "Dickey Stark, Mayberry Laughlin," 22-1-2010.
   Author: compiled by Norman [(E-ADDRESS) FOR PRIVATE USE\,]
   Repository:
   Name: n/a