Leslie Hoag Hope Family History

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  • ID: I3330
  • Name: Edward Southworth
  • Sex: M
  • Note:
    1014/B21v/28-5-1613Marriage certificate

    Parties:Edward Southworth, bachelor,sayworker,England;Alice Carpenter, spinster,England;Thomas Southworth, brother, Samuel Foller, brother-in-law;

    Marriage certificate Edward Southworth and Alice Carpenter, 1613

    Witnesses: Roger Wilson,witness groom,Elisabeth Jennings,witness bride,Anna Ross,witness bride.

    Research by Barbara Fleming, 3245 Chadbourne Road, Shaker Hts, OH 44120
    from http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~barbpretz/ps03/ps03_440.html

    "Ed. note: Edward Southworth was a sill worker in Leyden and one of the Pilgrim exiles who formed the Rev. John Robinson's church. It is not known what part of England he came from but in my journey to England in 1923 I visited Wellam in Notts and found the baptisms of an Edward Southworth with brothers Robert and Thomas. I have an idea that they came from this town but it has not been proven."[Benjamin Franklin Wilbour, Little Compton Families, (Little Compton, RI: Little Compton Historical Society, 1967).

    "There is much more on Edward Southworth given in the Southworth genealogy by Samuel G. Webber, but let it be understood that up to this time it has never been proved that he came from the celebrated Southworth family of Lancashire, although much work has been done on this family in England--BFW".[Benjamin Franklin Wilbour, Little Compton Families, (Little Compton, RI: Little Compton Historical Society, 1967).

    "Year 1610. Edward Southworth (93) was witness at the betrothal of John Jennings and Elizabeth Pettinger, 17 Dec. 1610; noted as brother-in-law of George Morton and Samuel Fuller. 1611. Edward Southworth (93) was witness at the betrothal of William Bassett (6) and Margaret Oldham, 13 Aug. 1611." [Frederick Lewis Weis, The Ancestry of Ensign Constant and Captain Thomas Southworth of Plymouth and Duxbury Massachusetts, (Dublin, NH: privately printed, 1958).

    "The first authentic record of Edward Southworth makes him a witness in Leyden, Holland on November 4, 1611 at the marriage of Isaac Allerton to Mary Norris. On April 30, 1613 he was again a witness in Leyden, this time at the marriage of Samuel Fuller to Agnes Carpenter. Another witness at the same wedding was Agnes's sister Alice. Four days later we find Edward applying for the necessay license to marry sister Alice. The wedding took place May 28, 1613. A copy of the record at Leyden follows. This record shows that Edward was a silkworker and that he hailed from England. Unfortunately, there is no mention of the Village or the County. Two years later, 1615, there was born to Edward and Alice in Leyden the son Constant who later came to America. Another year later, 1616, still in Leyden, they had Thomas."[G.C. Southworth, Hiram Southworth: His Ancestors and Descendants, (Ann Arbor, MI: Edwards Bros, Inc., 1943).

    The royal line of one Edward Southworth is listed, stating that the "Edward was probably father of Constant Southworth (1615-1678). However this has never been proven."[G.C. Southworth, Hiram Southworth: His Ancestors and Descendants, (Ann Arbor, MI: Edwards Bros, Inc., 1943).

    Details to be entered regarding the marriage of Edward Southworth and Alice Carpenter, including discussion of why Samuel Fuller was called the "zwager" of Edward Southworth (meaning either father-in-law, son-in-law or brother-in-law). The most likely interpretation is that it should have read "future brother-in-law". A picture of the record at Leyden and an English translation are on file. [The Marriage of Edward Southworth and Alice Carpenter," The Mayflower Descendant, X, no. 1, (January, 1908).]

    Edward's brother Thomas was a witness to the wedding.[McClure Meredith Howland, "A Report on Research into the English Background of the Southworth Family of Plymouth Colony," New England Historical & Genealogical Register, XCVII, (October, 1943).

    A correction to the October 1943 NEGHR notes that the brothers Thomas and Edward Southworth who were baptized in 1583 and 1585 respectively were born in Wellam, Notts., not Clayborough. This may or may not turn out to be the same Edward Southworth who was the father of Constant.[McClure Meredith Howland, "Southworth Family, October 1943, Correction," New England Historical & Genealogical Register, XCIX, (January, 1945).]

    There is an embroidered Southworth arms (picture on file) which was viewed in September, 1941 at the home of Mr. and Mrs. William Bradford Goodwin of Lowell, Mass. These were the arms which the Southworths of Salmsbury, Lancashire, bore. "Mr. Goodwin then remarked that his grandmother had told him that her grandmother had these embroidered arms in her possession. He said also that the latter had told his grandmother that these arms were Alice Southworth's. This great-great-grandmother of Mr. Goodwin's was Mrs. Lydia Bradford LeBaron, who was born in 1719, and died in 1756. She was the daughter of David Bradford, the grandson of Governor William Bradbord and Alice (Southworth) Bradford." . . One arguement used to support the idea that Alice Southworth Bradford had the Southworth crest in her possession is that Gov. Bradford's inventory included the word "crest". However, upon further examination of the inventory, the word was thought not to be crest at all. Also, there is no mention of a crest or embroidary in Alice Southworth Bradford's inventory. Also, it would seem strange that the crest would descend through the Bradford family when Alice had two Southworth sons. "As a result of all the evidence just presented, the writer considers that we may assume that the Southworth were embroidered, not before 1600 as some have claimed, but in this country, after 1700. . . . Born in Lancashire of this Salmsbury family were two brothers named Thomas and Edward who could have been the brothers of Leyden. . . Born of the cadet Southworth family just mentioned, in 1583 and 1585 respectively, was another pair of brothers named Thomas and Edward . . . Their birthplace was in Clayborough [corrected above to Wellam], Nottinghamshire, in the 'Pilgrim Country'. The Thomas and Edward just referred to could also have been the brothers of Leyden. . . .There were, then, born during the laste 16th centure, two pairs of brothers who could have been the Southworth brothers of Leyden: a Thomas and an Edward of the Salmsbury branch, and a Thomas and an Edward of the Nottinghamshire branch. . . However, the writer thinks that the preponderance of the evidence points to the identity of Thomas and Edward Southworth of Leyden as being the two brothers of the Nottinghamshire branch, born in the 'Pilgrim Country'; but it is highly probably that these two, father and uncle of Constant and Thomas Southworth of Plymouth Colony, descend either remotely or closely from the knightly family of Southworth of Salmsbury."[McClure Meredith Howland, "A Report on Research into the English Background of the Southworth Family of Plymouth Colony," New England Historical & Genealogical Register, XCVII, (October, 1943).

    "In answer to Mary L.T. Alden, in October number (NEGHR) - Edward Southworth, the pilgrim, was in Leyden in 1611 and 1613, so could not have been the Edward in Nottinghamshire in 1614. There are some mistakes in the line given in Winsor's history of Duxbury."[S.G. Webber, "Southworth (vol. 51, p. 496)," New England Historical & Genealogical Register, LII, (January, 1898).

    "EDWARD SOUTHWORTH (perhaps identical with the above [John of Samlesbury], but not proven, though his descendants used the Southworth of Samlesbury arms in contradistinction to the regular Southworth arms)." [Frederick Lewis Weis, The Magna Charta Sureties, 1215, 4th Edition, (Baltimore: Genealogical Publishing Co., Inc., 1982).]

    "This summary and review of the records concerning the Southworth family and the Pilgrims in England and Holland proints out very clearly that the identification of Edward as a member of the Lancashire family rests solely on the coincidence of names and dates. There has yet to be found any evidence that Sir John's grandsons, Thomas and Edward, had any connection with the Pilgrims or with Holland. In dramatic contrast, Rev. John Robinson, Rev. Richard Bernard, Rev. Richard Clyfton, Rev. John Smith, Mr. Hugo Bromhead, William Brewster, John Jennings, Elizabeth Pettinger, Thomas, Jane and Anne Peck, can all be shown by public records as having ties to the Southworth family of Notts. That family no longer suffers the handicap described by Hunter as having 'no marriages, no collaterals, no younger children, no daughters.' In addition to Robert of Clareborough and his sons Thomas and Edward, it now includes their 3 sisters, Robert's brother Richard and 10 children, including a Thomas and an Edward, William of Hayton and Robert of Headon and 6 children. . . . It should not take another 140 years to verify Hunter's thesis about a Nottinghamshire origin for Southworth of Leyden". More details of his theories to be entered.[Robert L. French, "Who was Edward Southworth of Leyden?," Mayflower Quarterly, 58 (1), (February, 1992).]

    Frederick Lewis Weis examines several theories as to the identity of Edward Southworth. He discusses ( and tries to refute) the Basset-Law theory of Rev. Joseph Hunter and concludes "Edward Southworth of Leyden and Edward Southworth of Samlesbury, were, as we have seen, born the same year (1590) and died the same year (1620): we have good reason to believe they are one and the same person." He also tries to refute Banks' theory of Edward Southworth of Fenton, the connection with the Southworths of St. Antholin's Parish in London, the Somersetshire Southworths. He concludes that "We have seen that the brothers Edward and Thomas of St. Antholin's Parish were too old; that the Somersetshire branch had no issue either of an Edward or a Thomas of the proper age; that the Basset-Law pair of brothers: Edward, born in 1583, and Thomas, born in 1587, have no known connection with Layden, if indeed they both came to maturity; moreover the Edward Southworth of Fenton in Sturton was much too old to qualify and furthermore lacked a brother Thomas. There remains a fourth pair of brothers: Thomas Southworth, born in 1579, and Edward Southworth, born in London, 1590, sons of Rosamond Lister and Thomas Southworth, the latter being the son and heir of Sir John Southworth of Samlesbury.. . . These two brothers, therefore, meet all chronological demands, and they are the only pair of brothers of these names that do meet these requirements." Many details of the Samlesbury Southworths are given. [Frederick Lewis Weis, The Ancestry of Ensign Constant and Captain Thomas Southworth of Plymouth and Duxbury Massachusetts, (Dublin, NH: privately printed, 1958).

    One possible pedigree is listed with the following note: "The following pedigree was procured by Horatio G. Somerby, Esq. from the Herald's College, London, for Nathan Southworth, Esq., artist, of Boston, and with the permission of the last-named gentleman I copy it. In its details, as regards intermarriages, etc., it is uncommonly full, much more so than most of so early a date." [Justin Winsor, History of the Town of Duxbury, Massachusetts, with Genealogical Registers, (Boston: Crosby & Nichols, 1849).

    "Edward Southworth say weaver, single man, from England, accompanied by Thomas Southworth his brother, Samuel Fuller, his brother-in-law, and Roger Wilson, his acquaintance, with Alice Carpenter, single woman, also from England, accompanied by Anna Ross and Elizabeth Jennings, her acquaintances."[Mary Lovering Holman, The Scott Genealogy, (Boston: Self-published, 1919).
    "Ed. note: Edward Southworth was a sill worker in Leyden and one of the Pilgrim exiles who formed the Rev. John Robinson's church. It is not known what part of England he came from but in my journey to England in 1923 I visited Wellam in Notts and found the baptisms of an Edward Southworth with brothers Robert and Thomas. I have an idea that they came from this town but it has not been proven."[Benjamin Franklin Wilbour, Little Compton Families, (Little Compton, RI: Little Compton Historical Society, 1967).

    Letter to Edward Southworth:
    Dartmouth, August 17

    LOVING FRIEND, my most kind remembrance to you and your wife, with loving E.M. etc., whom in this world I never look to see again. For besides the eminent dangers of this voyage, which are no less than deadly, an infirmity of body hath seized me, which will not in all likelihood leave me till death. What to call it I know not, but it is a bundle of lead, as it were, crushing my heart more and more these fourteen days; as that although I do the actions of a living man, yet I am but as dead, but the will of God be done.

    Our pinnace will not cease leaking, else I think we had been half-way to Virginia. Our voyage hither hath been as full of crosses as ourselves have been of crookedness. We put in here to trim her; and I think, as others also, if we had stayed at sea but three or four hours more, she would have sunk right down. And though she was twice trimmed at Hampton, yet now she is as open and leaky as a sieve; and there was a board a man might have pulled off with his fingers, two foot long, where the water came in as at a mole hole. We lay at Hampton seven days in fair weather, waiting for her, and now we lie here waiting for her in as fair a wind as can blow, and so have done these four days, and are like to lie four more, and by that time the wind will happily turn as it did at Hampton. Our victuals will be half eaten up, I think, before we go from the coast of England, and if our voyage last long, we shall not have a month's victuals when we come in the country.

    Near 700 hath been bestowed at Hampton, upon what I know not; Mr. Martin saith he neither can nor will give any account of it, and if he be called upon for accounts, he crieth out of unthankfulness for his pains and care, that we are suspicious of him, and flings away, and will end nothing. Also he so insulteth over our poor people, with such scorn and contempt, as if they were not good enough to wipe his shoes. It would break your heart to see his dealings, and the mourning of our people; they complain to me, and alas! I can do nothing for them. If I speak to him, he flies in my face as mutinous, and saith no complaints shall be heard or received but by himself, and saith they are froward and waspish, discontented people, and I do ill to hear them. There are others that would lose all they have put in, or make satisfaction for what they have had, that they might depart; but he will not hear them, nor suffer them to go ashore, lest they should run away. The sailors are so offended at his ignorant boldness in meddling and controlling in things he knows not what belongs to, as that some threaten to mischief him; others say they will leave the ship and go their way. But at the best this cometh of it, that he makes himself a scorn and laughing stock unto them.

    As for Mr. Weston, except grace do greatly sway him, he will hate us ten times more than ever he loved us, for not confirming the conditions. But now, since some pinches have taken them, they begin to revile the truth and say Mr. Robinson was in the fault who charged them never to consent to those conditions, nor choose me into office; but indeed appointed them to choose them they did choose. But he and they will rue too late, they may now see, and all be ashamed when it is too late, that they were so ignorant; yea and so inordinate in their courses. I am sure as they were resolved not to seal those conditions, I was not so resolute at Hampton to have left the whole business, except they would seal them, and better the voyage to have been broken off then than to have brought such misery to ourselves, dishonour to God and detriment to our living friends, as now it is like to do. Four or five of the chief of them which came from Leyden, came resolved never to go on those conditions. And Mr. Martin, he said he never received no money on those conditions; he was not beholden to the merchants for a pin, they were bloodsuckers, and I know not what. Simple man, he indeed never made any conditions with the merchants, nor ever spake with them. But did all that money fly at Hampton, or was it his own? Who will go and lay out money so rashly and lavishly as he did, and never know how he comes by it or on what conditions? Secondly, I told him of the alteration long ago and he was content, but now he domineers and said I had betrayed them into the hands of slaves; he is not beholden to them, he can set out two ships himself to a voyage. When, good man? He hat but 50 in and if he should give up his accounts he would not have a penny left him, as I am persuaded, etc.

    Friend, if ever we make a plantation, God works a miracle, especially considering how scant we shall be of victuals, and most of all ununited amongst ourselves and devoid of good tutors and regiment. Violence will break all. Where is the meek and humble spirit of Moses? and of Nehemiah who re-edified the walls of Jerusalem, and the state of Israel? Is not the sound of Rehoboam's brags daily here amongst us? Have not the philosophers and all the wise men observed that, even in settled commonwealths, violent governors bring either themselves or people or both to ruin? How much more in the raising of commonwealths, when the mortar is yet scarce tempered that should bind the walls! If I should write to you of all things which promiscuously forerun our ruin, I should over-charge my weak head and grieve your tender heart. Only this, I pray you prepare for evil tidings of us every day. But pray for us instantly, it may be the Lord will be yet entreated one way or other to make for us. I see not in reason how we shall escape even the gaspings of hunger-starved persons; but God can do much, and His will be done. It is better for me to die than now for me to bear it, which I do daily and expect it hourly, having received the sentence of death both within me and without me. Poor William Ring and myself do strive who shall be meat first for the fishes; but we look for a glorious resurrection, knowing Christ Jesus after the flesh no more, but looking unto the joy that is before us, we will endure all these things and account them light in comparison of that joy we hope for.

    Remember me in all love to our friends as if I named them, whose prayers I desire earnestly and wish again to see, but not till I can with more comfort look them in the face. The Lord give us that true comfort which none can take from us. I had a desire to make a brief relation of our estate to some friend. I doubt not but your wisdom will teach you seasonably to utter things as hereafter you shall be called to it. That which I have written is true, and many things more which I have forborn. I write it as upon my life, and last confession in England. What is of use to be spoken presently, you may speak of it; and what is fit to conceal, conceal. Pass by my weak manner, for my head is weak, and my body feeble. The Lord make me strong in Him, and keep both you and yours.

    Your loving friend,

    Dartmouth, August 17, 1620

    Marriage 1 Alice Carpenter
    • Married: 1613 in Leyden
    1. Has Children Constant Southworth b: ABT 1612
    2. Has No Children Thomas Southworth
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