The Phillips, Weber, Kirk, & Staggs families of the Pacific Northwest

Entries: 46019    Updated: 2014-08-03 19:59:08 UTC (Sun)    Contact: Jim Weber

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  • ID: I08727
  • Name: William de BURGH , Lord of Connaught, Sir 1 2 3
  • Sex: M
  • Birth: ABT 1170 in Burgh, Aylsham, Norfolk, England 4
  • Death: 1206 in Galway Castle, Connaught, Ireland 5
  • Death: 1205 6
  • Note:
    The following is a post by Stewart Baldwin to SGM, 2 Mar 2003, suggesting that William had 2 Richards by different wives, the 2nd being the ancestor of the Irish Clannicard line:

    On Sat, 1 Mar 2003 00:37:49 +0000 (UTC), ADRIANCHANN...@aol.com wrote:
    >I follow the pedigree given in _A History of Medieval Ireland_ by Edmund
    >Curtis, which does not seem to conflict with the problem you quote from the
    >Book of Lecan, and also agrees to CP Vol 12 p 171 as far as that goes:

    >Wm de Burgo (de Burgh) (-1206) m d of Donal More O'Briwn

    >Rd (I) Ld of Connacht (-1242) m Egidia de Lacy

    >A) Rd (II) (dsp 1248)
    >B) Walter Earl of Ulster etc (-1271)
    >C) William Oge (-1270) and left Wm Liath ancestor of Lords Clanrickard

    The problem is that this does not agree with the best Irish genealogical sources, which show William with two sons named Richard,
    the famous one who died in 1243 and another Richard who was ancestor of the Clanricard branch. This latter Richard is the one apparently referred to by the Book of Lecan, leaving as uncertain the mother of the elder Richard (ancestor of Edward IV, among many others). The table in the New History of Ireland has it the same way, with a dotted line, and the comment: "The origins of the Clanricard line are ont absolutely proven, but the descent given is that in the best genealogical sources and is not contradicted by contemporary sources."

    This would indicate that the subject is ripe for more detailed research in the primary sources, which might overturn this picture, but that the best evidence at the current time would indicate that the Richard who was stated in the Book of Lecan to be a grandson of Domnall Mor was NOT Richard lord of Connacht.

    The fact that some earlier secondary sources have it otherwise is pretty much irrelevant, in my opinion. Many early histories of Ireland were written without taking proper account of the Irish sources. Any argument that the Richard who was named as the grandson of Domnall Mor in the Book of Lecan was the same person as Richard lord of Connacht needs to be based on arguments from the primary sources.

    It would be nice if clear evidence could be found that Richard lord of Connacht was a grandson of Domnall Mor, as that would provide a number of interesting Irish descents that are not available through "Eve" of Leinster, but it would be jumping to conclusions to suggest that such a link is probable on the basis of current research.

    Stewart Baldwin

    -------------------

    Given that 2 marriages for William are proposed, the following post to SGM by John Ravilious, 8 Aug 2003, gives evidence pointing to the identity of the 1st wife:

    Dear Douglas, Phil, et al.,

    An avenue for resolving the relationship between Robert II, King of Scots and Edward III of England (found by Douglas
    Richardson in Foedera - 1st post in this thread) has been identified.

    One near relation of Robert II has been identified as being related to Edward I of England, with the relationship not yet
    resolved. In Douglas Richardson's as-yet unpublished manuscript for "Plantagenet Ancestry (3rd ed)", there is evidence found in
    the Chancery Warrants. One document in that collection records that Richard de Burgh, Earl of Ulster (d. 1326) was styled by
    Edward I as "king's cousin" [1]. The existence of this relationship is further supported in the published Letters of Edward [II], Prince of Wales, which Douglas also cites as identifying this same Richard de Burgh (called "Earl of Ulster"
    in the specific letter) as "cousin" [2].

    The ancestry of Richard de Burgh is relatively well known, with the significant exception of his great-grandmother, the wife
    of William de Burgh, lord of Connaught (d. 1205). She was previously identified as a daughter of Donnell/Domnall O'Brian,
    king of Thomond: this has been corrected, as shown by Stewart Baldwin (and possibly others) to show that this individual was
    possibly a wife of William de Burgh, but not the mother of his heir and successor in Connaught, Richard de Burgh (d. before 17
    Feb 1242/3) [3]. The identity of the mother of Richard de Burgh, ancestor of the Earls of Ulster, then reverted to "unknown".

    It now appears likely that this unidentified wife of William de Burgh was well connected with the royal house of England. This
    would not be the sole example of such high association for the de Burgh family in that generation - witness the marriages of Hubert
    de Burgh, to the Countess of Gloucester as well as a daughter of King William _the Lion_ [4].

    Given the chronology both for William de Burgh and his immediate descendants, I would suggest his wife was likely an
    otherwise unidentified illegitimate daughter of Henry II of England. Such a connection would yield the following
    relationships:




    Father: Walter (William) de BURGH b: ABT 1145 in Burgh, Aylsham, Norfolk, England
    Mother: Joan POUCHARD b: ABT 1152 in Burnham Overy, Docking, Norfolk, England

    Marriage 1 Illegitimate dau. of Henry II FITZROY b: ABT 1178
    • Married: in 1st wife 7 8
    Children
    1. Has Children Richard de BURGH , Lord of Connaught b: ABT 1198 in Galway Castle, Connaught, Ireland

    Marriage 2 Miss Mor O'BRIEN b: ABT 1178 in Munster, Clare, Ireland
    • Married: AFT 1200 in 2nd wife 7
    Children
    1. Has Children Richard de BURGH , of Clanricarde b: ABT 1203 in Clanricarde, Galway, Connaught, Ireland

    Sources:
    1. Title: Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists, 7th Edition, by Frederick Lewis Weis, additions by Walter Lee Shippard Jr., 1999
      Page: 177b-8
      Text: father of Richard
    2. Title: Newsgroup: soc.genealogy.medieval, at groups - google.com
      Page: Douglas Richardson, 25 Feb 2000
      Text: brother of Hubert de Burgh, Earl of Kent.
    3. Title: Newsgroup: soc.genealogy.medieval, at groups - google.com
      Page: Douglas Richardson, 2 Jan 2006
      Text: elder brother of Hubert
    4. Title: Newsgroup: soc.genealogy.medieval, at groups - google.com
      Page: Douglas Richardson, 25 Feb 2000
    5. Title: Newsgroup: soc.genealogy.medieval, at groups - google.com
      Page: Douglas Richardson, 2 Jan 2006
    6. Title: Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists, 7th Edition, by Frederick Lewis Weis, additions by Walter Lee Shippard Jr., 1999
      Page: 177b-8
    7. Title: Newsgroup: soc.genealogy.medieval, at groups - google.com
      Page: Stewart Baldwin, 2 Mar 2003
    8. Title: Newsgroup: soc.genealogy.medieval, at groups - google.com
      Page: John Ravilious, 8 Aug 2003

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